No Holds Barred | Ethanol vs CO2 Rematch
In this episode of No Holds Barred, Dr. Jon and Randall Thompson have a rematch discussion on the topic of supercritical CO2 vs. ethanol as a hemp and cannabis extraction solvent. Dr. Jon still believes there is a clear winner when it comes to hemp processing and the solvent used. Listen now to find out which you should be using in your extraction process!
Welcome to extract talks with Dr. Jon podcast. Dr. Jon is CEO and president of extract lab and united science and industry leader in hemp, cannabis and the extraction industry. Listen closely as Dr. Jon talks about his experiences, CBD extraction methodology and the ins and outs of owning your own business. Dr. Jon teaches you healthy business practices, how to increase your profits and steps to take your CBD company to a whole new level. Let’s dive in.
Randall Thompson 00:33
Hey guys, welcome we’re on we’re well you know, we’re here we’re ready to rumble. Welcome good. This is a fun and safe place. Ask all questions no holds barred questions simple or tough questions are good. Join the chat with questions. Introduce yourself, please. I want to know if you’re a farmer processor investor that helps us know how to you know angle the questions. There will be a replay invite your friends. everything’s going great. We’ll talk about next week’s Kind of a secret we’ll get to that later. It’s gonna be very interesting. You’ll love it explore our resources live tour CBD jam sessions and man you guys are booking the jam session
Dr. Jon 01:10
yeah it’s been pretty good
Randall Thompson 01:11
it’s been great you guys have great questions love the businesses love what you’re doing advanced extraction guide the calculator library the mini course library work a lot of good things Oh, Julian Andrews. Winner winner chicken dinner. Wow, we got okay Instagram, one extract lab t shirt stickers and bottle opener sweet the all important yes bottle opener. I it saves your teeth. That is true. So enter just like in Chicago you know vote early vote often enter early enter often go on to our social media. Awesome. So today, as you know, we are ethanol versus CO2 rematch. Yeah, and it’s kind of fun. I mean, there’s we got people all over the place. So please introduce yourself and make sure we know who you are farmer processor investor. Also, I want to make sure as we’re going through, can you tell us I’d like as the guys are setting up, I want to set up a new poll to add next after this, go ahead and fill out who you are. But then think about this because I want to do are you currently processing CO2 food grade? ethanol, denatured, ethanol, all of the above? What are you, that’s gonna help us as well. So we want to talk about that. So that we can go now. We have pages of questions.
Dr. Jon 02:30
Yeah, it’s good. It’s good. This is fun. Yeah, it’s good.
Randall Thompson 02:33
This is really good stuff. So we got to get right into it. Yeah. And before we dive into the questions, what I want to do, Dr. Jon really wants to talk a bit about the differences. operating costs. Well, I’ll let you go. That’s great.
Dr. Jon 02:47
Yeah, yeah. So I’ll make the win. Hey, thanks for the poll. Lots of processors. Yes. a surprising amount of chemists that’s that’s cool. Investors are coming up on the board, and go entrepreneurs. All right. You guys are awesome. So growers we got we got a couple growers. We got some hemp farmers good. Okay, very good. Well, thank you for that. We’re going to close that poll out. Appreciate it. Just want to know where you guys are coming from. Happy to have you here. As always, and I’m just going to start a presentation. You know, guys, it all comes down to a couple things. And that is a couple things is one thing and which is cost. I mean, fundamentally, I’m going to be talking quite a bit about operating costs in this section. And, you know, there are a lot of questions about Okay, is the solvent, the right solvent? It doesn’t have the right solvent power. Yeah.
Randall Thompson 03:38
Okay. Yeah. Okay. I call
Dr. Jon 03:39
them selective. Okay. Things like that. Okay, is the throughput high enough? Or am I going to, is my machine fast enough? Is it going to be Do I have the right machinery further? Okay, all of those questions, absolutely. They kind of all melt in front of the mountain of cost. It’s true. So we’re going to kind of go through that in just very, very quickly kind of show you just some cost comparisons. Because a lot of people, that’s a huge deciding factor, you know, when they’re trying to get up and running, and they’re trying to think about their business and their operations vital
Randall Thompson 04:16
because when you’re doing when you’re starting a business running a business, there are so many hidden costs that you’re aren’t aware of, because the reality is, you don’t know what you don’t know. Exactly. And now we’re gonna open the kimono make sure that you know what we know. And, you know, we’re learning together we’re going but this guy knows his stuff.
Dr. Jon 04:36
Okay, we got lots of ethanol processors here. That’s really great. Sweet. Okay, we’ll end that poll. We got lots of CO2 processors, we got some D nature guys as well, which is
Randall Thompson 04:46
okay, it’s all good. Thank you for that.
Dr. Jon 04:48
So here, I’m gonna go ahead and start this up. Okay. So, this is all about operating costs and a full comparison. You guys can go ahead and you know, make comments along the lines. We’ll be looking at the chat as we go along. And basically looking at what you guys have and we’ll be addressing them as we go along. Yeah, cost versus quality. Okay, let’s, let’s make it happen. So I’m going to go next here. Okay, so here here’s a, here’s a, just a table, we got equipment and startup cost comparison for one ton per day. This is for the hemp farmers, marijuana farmers or marijuana growers, you guys are gonna do as much but all the ratios stay the same. So you got basically a 5000 square foot extraction startup. Okay, so here you got your ethanol numbers here, here, you got your CO2 numbers, and then here’s your cost difference here. Okay. And you have the equipment cost. You know, one of the reasons people get into the ethanol equipment is because it has a less of a startup cost on the on the ethanol equipment itself. So you can see that the CO2 for the same setup is almost double. And so you got a cost difference there 2 million if you guys are doing infrastructure. In other words, you’re doing large amounts of ethanol, you’re gonna have to figure out how to deal with f2 occupancy versus h2 occupancy. And there’s a cost associated with a hazardous occupancy. Currently, if you have a sprinklered, you know, non flammable type facility that has a metal roof on it completely metal construction, you can have about 240 gallons of ethanol with three different control areas. So that’s something you need to keep in mind. If you really want to scale up, you’re going to have to have more ethanol than that around in that puts you into a different occupancy and the occupancy has costs associated with that. I’m not going to go into that in depth in this presentation, but I got all the numbers and we can talk about it you guys certainly could talk about on a CBD jam session or something like that. So and then startup solving costs obviously you have to pay if you’re there’s a lot of food grade ethanol processors here. You guys are paying quite a bit for food grade ethanol. I think it was yesterday, spot price was $33. There’s a gallon, which is actually double our calculations that we’re going to show you here in the next. So you’re actually doubling it up. Okay? Our spot price for CO2 is four cents a pound, just to give you an idea here. So here you add all that stuff up look at your 1,000,002 ahead with ethanol. And so ethanol wins less capital intensive. Absolutely where Yeah, game over checkmate suck us
Randall Thompson 07:27
talk about anything else ethanol, it’s game over. Game over. It’s not.
Dr. Jon 07:33
Okay, not. But wait, there’s more. But wait, there’s more. So let’s just kind of go on to the next slide here and I’ll tell you all the phone and you only got a fracture of the story. So let’s, let’s start. Let’s start really talking about let’s break this down. Okay. We start talking about operating costs for a 100 day facility. Now this is everything here is indexed off of a one time a day facility. You have operating costs that are associated with Now, I am neglecting the cost of the biomass because it’s the same for both CO2 and ethanol. So that’s neglected. The cost of the facility in this analysis is completely neglected cost of insurance that could hazardous waste, you know, manifestation and removal. All those costs are pretty much neglected here. We’re not talking about those at all. Okay, so let’s just look at cost of goods sold, which is the direct cost, which is labor and materials cost, okay. What we have here in this slide right here is on the y axis is operating cost comparison and dollars and we have to the ethanol and the CO2, okay, the labor here is assumed to be about the same basically for one ton, the number of people that you need to run a unit is about that these numbers here on the changeover and the loss of solvent those all came from a company called Delta. And they have calculators that they give we’d looked at their cash And we kind of did some salt at last. So we took the numbers from those guys. So what you’re looking at here is right here, loss of solvent. That’s if you recover, okay, that’s if you recover the solvent. So what we’re assuming is that you’re recovering anywhere from 90 to 95% of the solvent, in the number that’s really addressed here is due to loss of that lack of recovery. Okay? A lot of the people out there they have presses, they have like a salad spinner, almost or washing machine almost, and they spin it out, they dry it down, but still, a lot of that ethanol is still left in the biomass. Sure. Okay. And anywhere from five to 10%. A good conservative figure would be 10%. very aggressive figure would be 5%. If you guys have any questions on that, or any comments on the loss of ethanol, go ahead and put that in there. If you would,
Randall Thompson 09:49
as you said earlier, the cost you put on there for ethanol was at
Dr. Jon 09:54
what know was that 1616? No, yeah. So that currently the nature 710 spirits, hexane heptane denatured came in yesterday like at 16 bucks a gallon. And that’s the nature. Yeah, D nature. Now all the prices have kind of gone up, basically, because we’re in this COVID time. Yeah, so normal. Normally, you would be right around maybe 16 $17 a gallon for food grade, okay. And then you’d be, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, 1011. If you guys have any questions on that, or have any real date up to date information, if you’ve got it, go ahead and just put it in the notes there and give me give me some help there. But we’d like I went yesterday, I got our purchaser on the line, and he basically got me all the numbers so that they are kind of up to date, and it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit skewed, so it makes ethanol look a lot worse than it really actually is in in normal use. So, this solvent loss would if we took all of this right here, besides the labor and we just neglected it. This is the solvent changeover and this right here is that Testing cost, and that’s the labor. So we just took that. And we took the labor out, took the labor out, and we took everything out, you’d still see this is the CO2 cost here. It’s just like infinitesimal.
Randall Thompson 11:11
Yeah. It’s below the cost.
Dr. Jon 11:14
Yeah. Right. And that’s also including the loss due to winterization, which you do use ethanol and winterization. But you see that you’re using so much less ethanol and winterization, that the last is don’t really even matter. And you can use food grade. So the loss of ethanol is really a key driver in your overall operating.
Randall Thompson 11:33
So make sure I understand this. Yeah. So the overall cost, and it’s the same and we These are old prices, these are normalized pricing at $16 per year, right now for food grade. Right, right. Right. And the cost to operate a CO2 extraction facility is less than half of just the loss of solvent. Yeah, even all extraction facility. Yeah,
Dr. Jon 12:00
it’s like 15 x less and just insolvent
Randall Thompson 12:03
and I’m just talking about the entire cost of CO2 is less the operating costs is less than half. Yes, the solvent loss ran the ethanol, okay? That’s a huge operating deal.
Dr. Jon 12:16
Huge operating costs. That’s a huge operating. I mean, I okay, I want to know that, okay. Now Now, operating costs, basically, will define your gross margin, okay. And then you add sales to that you take away sales, you add your depreciation expense in there, and you got your bottom line, that net margin, net margin goes to your cash flow. So absolutely, that that number has a huge impact on your cash flow. Yes, giant and I’m going to just show you a couple different I apologize. I
Randall Thompson 12:44
promised not to ask a lot of questions. That’s
Dr. Jon 12:46
okay. It’s all good. Here. Let me see here. I’m just we’re just kind of going down here. Trying to see make sure yeah, don’t be shy and asking questions. Please. Please go ahead. I see. There’s there’s some really good questions coming in and we’ll get to those. Yep. Yep. And they are adjusted. Yes, they are adjusted for COVID-19. Yes, they are. When I saw that, David, so no, no, wait, wait, sorry. They’re not adjusted for COVID-19 though the old prices Yeah, they are the better if it would be just worse for ethanol if we adjusted them for COVID-19. Exactly. It would be really bad. So but let’s take a look at this. But the price
Randall Thompson 13:17
I when it came in, I saw David, you asked that question when we talked about the $33 number. That was a current COVID adjusted price. Yeah, the 33. Right. But all of these presentations are on the normal normalized costing at 16. for food grade, correct?
Dr. Jon 13:34
Correct. crowded, okay. So let’s, let’s talk about this graph here. This is a very cool, very important graph. Okay. What I have plotted here is the cumulative operating cost as a function of time and this is in months. They can’t see the mouse. Oh, okay.
Randall Thompson 13:52
Right. He’s got a really cool fangled mouse here that he’s at, so we
Dr. Jon 13:56
got to tell. Okay, so now the horizontal, the vertical on okay. Let’s, let’s first focus our attention on the left hand side, which is the food grade ethanol side. Okay? And keep in mind the key assumption here $16 per gallon, which is the normal price, okay? The orange line is the cumulative operating costs for ethanol. And that includes like losses and all the other stuff that we had in the previous slide. And with the key driver of that being that solvent loss, and the blue dots as a function of time, are for CO2. And you can see the slope is what you really need to be looking at the slope of the orange dots is very, very high. Now, you can see on the vertical axis, we’re not starting at zero. So we’ve taken into account the differences in the initial startup costs, okay? And what’s a very important part to just think about is when those two lines cross over, because that’s the point at which you’re Your Money savings from your low cost ethanol setup just stopped paying for itself Well, okay, so in the case of food grade ethanol at pre COVID prices, we’re looking at anywhere from let’s just say, two to four months of a difference in time. Gotcha. You know, basically the time to catch up to the cost that you would have paid for CO2. Now, you can see the differences in basically the differences between the what it costs you between the blue line and the orange dots, those are the cumulative cost difference.
Randall Thompson 15:35
And this is based on a one ton per day. Yes, based on so it goes all the way back to the first slide where we said ethanol one, right where the cost of start equipment startup costs of all of that equipment was far less than CO2, right? But when you do this, your payback is in okay on the left for the great economic performance
Dr. Jon 15:56
two months, two or four months, right. So let’s go back to that slide. And that you can see that we’re not starting from zero again on there’s, it’s not going to the zero on the left hand side, the food grade ethanol, it’s not going to zero. So you can see we’re assuming that there’s two costs there. There’s we’re starting with a cost. Okay,
Randall Thompson 16:16
sure. That makes sense, because we’re starting at one time. So day one is right in the middle of that first vertical
Dr. Jon 16:23
bow. It’s really difficult for ethanol to compete with four cents a pound. That’s the bottom line. That’s exactly right. Very, very difficult. four cents a pound. Okay. So, it on the right hand side, I said, Okay, well, let’s do another analysis where we instead of using food grade, we use denatured ethanol. And I think I assumed $8 a gallon for denatured ethanol, this would be ethanol with hep Dane in it or it has some sort of, it’s licensed denatured ethanol, okay. And we have the same two plots, except in this one, it’s gray and The gray line with the slope on it is ethanol. And the blue dots are still CO2. And you can see that the time to pay back increases about two months, basically from three to five. So you might want to give it the benefit of the doubt and say anywhere from four to six months. Sure, it’d be something, but it’s very difficult to compete with CO2 on the basis of cost. Just it is. So that’s going to give food grade ordinator. Yeah, that’s going to give the CO2 processor a huge cost advantage in the market. Because they have margin in here, what they’re going to do with that margin, what are they going to do? They’re going to hire salespeople, they’re going to take and lower their prices. So they’re going to do a bunch of things. So let’s go into each one of the other costs that are going into this assumption here, these plots and I’ll show you what they all mean. Let’s go that’s a good visual. Thank you for that. Yeah. Okay. So let’s focus first on the loss of solvent okay. So, let me see here. What is the solvent loss from that? Ethanol versus CO2, okay, the amount of solvent that’s not recovered after extraction, that’s what solvent losses okay? And that’s there’s assumption either five to 10% Okay, in this particular analysis I kind of split the difference so I think I like 7% Okay, like that solvent can be lost in the atmosphere via evaporation or in the case of CO2 may be recovered and reused. So that’s another way solvent is lost, you know, like we buy solvent here for winterization. And yeah, we you know, we lose it. We don’t know where to go. I don’t know it’s in the it’s in the air, I guess I don’t know or it’s, it’s in the oils or where is it? I have no idea. So it’s it there’s a loss. Okay. So we’re buying totes we buy totes a food grade ethanol all the time. So okay, solvent can be lost to spills and transfers, major ethanol solvent loss from entrainment and the biomass. So this is trying to get the ethanol out of the biomass and it’s really hard to do better than 5% without a lot of heat in Then you’re really not able to recover that if you use heat. Okay. One of the issues there is, you have this also, that I’m not going to discuss in this in this time, but I have written on it, it’s the hazardous waste aspect of the biomass coming out of it. So if you’re using if you have like a lot of ethanol, and you got like 10% ethanol in your biomass. In some jurisdictions, they consider that hazardous waste. So you have to pay for that or you have to remove it. And if there’s hep teen or ISO, propyl, alcohol or something else in there that you use from a D nutrient, that you can try to ship it or get rid of it in a landfill, but you’re taking a liability for your business. Oh, yeah. And it’s not the same for every location. In some locations. It’s more strict than others.
Randall Thompson 19:47
It’s all depending on the municipality or the county that there
Dr. Jon 19:50
Yeah, yeah. And it’s also people like in very aggressive permitting areas, typically they’ll have more enforcement on that. Okay, so here we go. I’m just showing you the numbers here, ethanol loss, it looks like you got 30 gallons per cycle. In this case you’re doing this is like a cp 30. So you got 30 gallons per cycle, one gallon per 30 pounds. Basically, that’s the ratio. In this case, you can see I’ve calculated that 90% recovery, that means you got $3 per gallon per cycle that’s lost, there’s about 55 cell cycles per day, $16 per gallon with the excise tax, you can see that that would be the pre COVID food grade ethanol price and then 4787 cost per cycle. And then where there’s three machines to make up a ton a day, 55 cycles a day, that’s seven 7899 cost per day. So if you want to assume just for the sake of assuming that you’ll get 95% recovery of your ethanol, that’s fine. Just take that number and divide it by two. Instead of having the crossover occur at three months. It’s now going to be at six months, right? I don’t care. You can do that. You can already With the assumptions, I don’t care, certainly you’re always going to be losing some. Sure. And everybody who has done ethanol tractions knows that you lose ethanol. So so that’s a big cost compared to, for example, CO2, you’re losing basically 22 pounds per cycle, there’s a certain number of cycles to get a ton of day. So it’s you’re looking at about 211 bucks per day at four cents
Randall Thompson 21:21
per pound. Holy cow. So even if you did this at 95%, evaporation, right, right, or recovery, right? So you’re doing that. So what you’re doing is you’re dividing that cost per day in half, almost. That’s what extends that. Yeah. So your cost per day rather than 70 $900 is really going to be south of $4,000. Right? If you recover or recapture 5% more, right, okay. And that’s still versus $211. Right?
Dr. Jon 21:50
This is only looking at solvent loss from ethanol. That’s it.
Randall Thompson 21:54
So just the blue spot on that other graph.
Dr. Jon 21:57
Yeah. And recovery, you know, recovery above 99. The 5% recovery of anything is really hard to do. Oh, yeah. So I think that they’re kind of at the limits. You take a walk, it’s hard to
Randall Thompson 22:07
Dr. Jon 22:08
Yes. Yes, it is. I’m gonna move on here. Oh, yeah, there was a recurring question. I’m just going to kind of go just as a sidebar here. There’s a lot of people ask this question to us when people use CO2 for ethanol and CO2 for winterization. So who cares? Yeah, well, yeah, we do use that for winterization. No problem. It’s totally admitted. No, no problem at all. But the volume is just in a different category. Yeah. So your losses are negligible. They’re really not. They’re hardly any compared to, like, if you’re actually extracting one gallon per pound of biomass or whatever your ratio. Wow. Okay, so, yeah, so anyway, I’m just checking to see if there’s any questions. For me a couple
Randall Thompson 22:50
of quick questions. David came in with CO2 extraction for vape products. I know that had come up earlier in the week as well. Yeah. You want to touch on that? Well, yeah,
Dr. Jon 22:58
everybody’s heard my diet. tripod that I mean, I think I think I got I got all the haters coming on that one, look, yes, CO2 products are what I consider to be clinical grade products because you are avoiding the risk of cross contamination. Now if you see food grade CO2, I really in you use it and you’re doing your reuse tests and validation tests on that, as you’re reusing it. I don’t really have any problem with that. But CO2 is going to definitely give you a cleaner extract. Definitely. And if you buy organic CO2, organic hemp or organic style mass, and then you CO2, you are gold. And that is that is the pure stuff that you can find. Yeah,
Randall Thompson 23:41
and we’re seeing a huge push to that in vape. I mean, at least the things I’m saying Yeah, especially because of the ingestion of that. We’re seeing a lot of that push to organic and CO2 because the CO2 is automatically organic. You can get organic ethanol
Dr. Jon 23:59
right but full price. Yeah, it’s Yeah, it’s taking that $33 and doubling it. Yeah.
Randall Thompson 24:04
So it was way.
Dr. Jon 24:05
Yeah. Okay. So anyway, true CO2 extraction needs ethanol for winterization. Yeah, we use that
Randall Thompson 24:12
you have a product called Dan, you would ask that question that very question. You know, what’s the difference if, you know, crude is dropped in this direction Anyway, why why are we having this argument? Right? It’s a scale issue.
Dr. Jon 24:22
Yeah, it’s a scale.
Randall Thompson 24:24
Your use so much more in the extraction process,
Dr. Jon 24:27
right. So if you’re doing a lot of hemp extraction, you’re paying a lot for ethanol. I mean, you’re basically using 22 times more ethanol than what we would use in the CO2 to CO2 process. So anyway, food grade ethanol is used to avoid commercial chemical contaminants. Ethanol reuse is still subject to the FDA GMP practice for job validation, specification requirements. I’m not going to talk about that. That’s a whole nother topic, what is required from the FDA perspective or reuse of solvent. So it’s it’s quite extensive. We So in other words, you have to have a specification, then you have to test to that specification and to validate that it is suitable for reuse. But doesn’t
Randall Thompson 25:12
even the thing actually say that it has to go back to its original state
Dr. Jon 25:15
original state. How is that possible? It’s impossible. It is impossible. So there is an issue that’s going to happen, what’s going to happen is when the FDA starts to inspect, they’re going to come into facilities, and they’re going to start looking at the piles of dirt on the floor. Okay, that’s the first thing that they’re going to do. And, you know, some people will put them there just so they’ll look. And then they’re gonna start looking at paperwork, and then they’re going to be applying their industrial guidance to these facilities, and their industrial guidance. They’re gonna say, Okay, well, where’s your validation papers, where your specifications, where’s all this stuff? And if you don’t have it in, you’re running your ethanol reuse program. And you know, you’re going to run a mock with the FDA. So I don’t I don’t know anybody. Actually. We’ve been inspected by the FDA, but I don’t know a lot of people who have been inspected by the FDA, unless they have an actual GMP certificate. So we have, Okay, I’m gonna go on here. So now let’s talk about solvent changeover. Okay. Now some people GMP requirement, okay is that you actually define how many times you can use the solvent again and again and again, it just continue using it forever and ever. Okay. Okay. So they make you define that in a document. And so there’s a certain frequency that you need to change out your solvents, okay. And I don’t know if any of you guys do that. If you can, if you put a comment in there, we’ll kind of talk about you know, what, what is required from the standpoint of compliancy. But if you do that, and you have a certain number of cycles that you say, Okay, I’m gonna every 30 cycles, I’m a change up my solvents. What that means is that you have hazardous waste coming out that you need to manifest Get rid of, it’s not expensive. It’s like, you know, like, maybe four or 500 bucks a barrel, something like that to get rid of, you know, flammable solids, and then you have the actual cost of recharging your system with fresh ethanol. Okay, okay. Now, I don’t know if you guys do this, and I’d like to hear from you, if you guys do this, if you just keep reusing it forever and ever, I mean, your solvents are going to get gunked up. Okay? And I’ll tell you, there’s a good reason to do it. In the first circle, you have three concentric circles. The first one is your starting solvent, okay? And that’s where you have in this case, I have a denatured solvent. So the gray is actually a denaturant. The blue is actually water, and then the yellow is actually ethanol. And you can see that I’m starting off with a you know, approximately an 80% ethanol solution. Okay. All right. And then after you extract your obviously you have cannabinoids that are in there, and you have ethanol that’s in there and you have your denaturant You have water. And you also have other stuff, which is unknown. Okay, now you do your recovery operation. In other words, you’re distilling off that ethanol, that’s the third concentric circle. And you can see that with the first cycle, you have a little bit of that other left in there, even after recovery. And if you do the analysis, you can actually see that in there. Now, you don’t just stick with that other actually, since ethanol is such a great solvent. It’s such a wonderful solvent, it’s, you know, crazy good, it’s gonna dissolve as much as it can. And it’s going to accumulate this other component over time. And this has been recognized by the FDA. And so they’re saying, Hey, guys, you have to change this. You have to change your solvents out because the solvents you use are typically they’ll accumulate gunk, accumulate stuff, and you don’t want to use raw technical And the key stuff. Yeah, icky stuff. Yeah, you want to cross contaminated because some of that could be pesticides, for example, for example. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna back up just a little bit here. So is solvent changeover required? Yeah, there’s all kinds of FDA guidance here. Here’s what you have to have specifications, testing data on impurities, and the maximum number of times a solvent can be recycled. This is what’s required. I highly doubt I have never seen a ethanol operation do this. Well, so I don’t know what’s what the deal is, other than you can go into the FDA. It’s all there for you. If you can contact me I’ll send you the stuff but this is the summary for you. There’s the original state and suitable Yeah, and the data on the maximum number of times that it can be recycled. The question that came in my mind and I’m sure I’ve seen a couple of questions pop up over here. If you said like every 30 per cycles or whatever, rather than mandate a certain number of cycles and using that as a benchmark, should you be using that as a test and testing? What’s there? Yeah, well, that’s where the testing cost comes in, right? In the specification. So usually what happens is, okay, I have a specification for food grade ethanol, there’s my specification, that’s now my accept criteria. And I need to test to see if I have reached that original specification, if I haven’t, so then what I do is I use it, you know, 30 times and I establish, okay, well, it looks like I can’t meet my original specification anymore. Therefore, now I can’t use that anymore, or I have to recondition it or I have to do something to it to to reuse it. Okay. So that’s what the FDA is looking for. They’re looking for the manufacturer to have specifications, and to have a testing protocol to test against those specifications to see if they have actually done, brought it back to the original state.
Randall Thompson 30:56
So at the risk of jumping forward the that is stuff that’s in there that’s left in there, and it continues to accumulate, right? Is that contaminating your next batches?
Dr. Jon 31:08
It depends on what it is. I mean it. Okay. So it could be cellular matter, or it could be small molecules from the plant. I, I wouldn’t consider that anything bad. Okay. But it could be other stuff like you could accumulate pesticides. Or if you had some other compounds in there and unknown, yeah, you can test that. Yes. That’s something you need to think and then that would contaminate future batches. Right, right. That could be so cross contamination in a FDA environment, cross contamination is a big deal. And in they are always looking for where’s that potential risk of cross contamination coming from? Is the risk real or is it perceived? In the case of this? You would, in case of solvents, it’s definitely real, but I think that in combination with incoming inspections and things like that you can kind of establish, hey, that that other category is at least not going to hurt people. Okay, I think that that would be the case. Plus, if you actually went and measured some, you could you could basically say, hey, look, you know, it looks it looks good. It’s not it’s not, it’s not the bad stuff.
Randall Thompson 32:20
Okay. And there is a question that came up, which I think is pertinent to this and that is, what are those common the nature it’s Oh, ethanol and which ones are persistent and processing or are they all persistent?
Dr. Jon 32:32
Yeah, no. Okay. Here. Here’s the deal with residuals and that’s where the nutrients are added chemicals to ethanol, chemical manufacturers put them in there on purpose, they that you cannot drink a ethanol solution that has a DEA nature intended, that’s the purpose it has, like methanol or heck teen or whatever. My beef with that, of course, is that we don’t really know the health effects and neither does the FDA and neither does the NIOSH or the European FDA on those particular things, and if you take them out of there, you take them out of your oils and stuff. They’re still in there at a small amount and my thing is, hey, why would you why over if you take CBD stuff or CBD tinctures over time, you’re basically accumulating them over time. So what you have in terms of the most common DNA trends are really hep teen. You I we’ve seen we’ve done a study on this where we’ve taken a whole bunch of samples basically from ethanol producers there must have been, I don’t know the last count but it was over 20 and 25 to 30% of them had large amounts of DNA to attend them so they were acetone we found we found isopropanol alcohol, found some other things along we found hep teen we found hexane and they were selling these off as real products. So anyway, I think that that is a big deal, even if it’s below the acceptable Hold for me. I’m not going to take it. Okay, that that’s it. Thanks. So let me see here, what is solvent change over? Okay, we talked about that. Okay, this is the cost of solvent changeover. And you can see, here’s 15,000, here’s an ethanol change over Oh, yeah, this is the, there’s two different tables at the very bottom. Okay. One of them is a solvent changeover in five days, and one of them is a solvent changeover in 20 days, okay, so you can see you’re averaging the changeover over time, and if it’s 30 days, the cost per day is going to go down. So for those of you who do this, it’s a real cost. And I’m going to skip this, okay. But you guys are probably asking, Hey, you know, I don’t change out my solvents, you know, I know they have to a requires it, but we don’t do it. So let’s you know, so I don’t believe your cost analysis. Okay, so, so what I did was I anticipated that in basically I plotted this I took that whole entire cost out and I just re plotted everything and you See that here over on this side right here over on the right hand side is without that cost put in there. So the one side is the original one that we had discussed that’s with this short solvent changeover cost. And then the one on the right hand side is no solvent changeover cost at all I just took completely took it out I deleted it. You can still see the slope is still there. It’s very, very difficult to compete with four cents a pound. The crossover time changes from like three months up to like nine to nine months, eight to 10 months. Yep, eight. Actually, it’s right on eight so I can I can say it’s right on eight. So Oh, yeah. So it doesn’t prove that but it doesn’t help you in after eight months. In fact, it’s still hurting you. Okay? So if you assuming you just say okay, I don’t care about the FDA. I don’t care about these rules because they’re not helping me and they’re not enforcing them at the moment. So why you’re buying yourself six months by myself six months. Yes, it exactly. But you after that, you’re still have to commit With the guy who’s, who’s extracting it
Randall Thompson 36:02
for potential of cross contamination or residual,
Dr. Jon 36:06
yeah, there’s that. And so you know, you have costs associated with that you have testing costs associated with that you have the actual changeover itself. So yeah, I neglected all that in here. So just to show you that, hey, our analysis is still valid, even when you take that cost completely out of it. Okay. Now, I’m going to talk about energy costs. A lot of people get a lot of questions on energy. Yes. And they really do. Yeah, well, you know, what do we need here, so let’s kind of look at energy costs. Here’s ethanol on the left hand side and CO2 is on the right hand side, this is an end to end energy costs, which means it’s, it’s everything taken together. So it looks like you’re looking at about $77 a day to run a CO2 facility at one tonne per day, that’s about what you’re going to be spending the ethanol is a lot higher and that that has to do with one thing and that that’s amount of it’s all of that ethanol that you need to basically bring up to Boiling Point and then vaporize. And there’s a that energy deficit is called the heat of vaporization. And it’s pretty big for ethanol. So you have to put a lot of Watson you have to put a lot of power in. If you have a lot of ethanol, you have to have a lot of power. So that’s it. So looking at for one ton a day, using the Delta see up 30 numbers and the kilowatts associated with that you’re adding it all up along with the heater vaporization to remove all that ethanol, you’re looking at basically 423 per day. So that’s so basically $77 per day versus 423 per day. It’s significantly different. That’s huge. Yeah, it is.
Randall Thompson 37:40
So and just so that I’m clear, this is not our data. This is not internal data. This is data you pulled from delta and other third party
Dr. Jon 37:49
as well as our one on the left the assumptions is what I pulled from them got it. In other words, we looked at the cut sheets and then we added up all the watts for all the cut sheets, okay? would need Then follow their process. And in this case, they have three units, 55 cycles, and they have a certain number of gallons that have to be evaporated. Sure. And we know the heat of vaporization. We know how much how many watts, so we put that back into the model and then calculate the cost. So that that’s really what that is. Okay. So yeah, look, we have a product called the fracTron. And that’s a solvent remover product. Okay, it removes, you know, gallons and gallons and gallons of like, what is it? 40 gallons an hour, something like that. It’s crazy amount. Yeah, it really does require a lot of power. So I could verify that that’s true.
Randall Thompson 38:34
So it’s six times more costly. For energy, yeah, on ethanol than on CO2. And
Dr. Jon 38:41
yeah, I always like to look at the numbers, as you know, kind of ranges. So, you know, give yourself a range because there’s always variabilities in these numbers relative to you know, the assumptions that we’re making versus assumptions you’re making. By the way we have we’re almost done with the calculator, I promise, promise, promise, I’m this so you can do these scenarios. yourself, you can put in do sliders and everything like that on your assumptions. So let’s move on here. labor. And testing costs are just, they’re the same. I mean, essentially, we need one guy to run a ton, and he’s not going to be working all the time. So, you know, I think that that’s pretty much the same, you know, one guy per shift to run the CP 30, you may get some labor advantage. I don’t know if you’re doing like a big batch process. So you did one time and you just put in, let it go. Ours is not like that. You need someone there to tend the machine. But then you’re not really scaling your process, okay? You’re not like, Okay, I’m gonna go with one ton, and I’m gonna run one ton a day. You’re not really scaling your process up. So you may have a little bit more labor with the CO2. I don’t really know. Actually, not with the CP 30 that we just talked about, but certainly with maybe like a really super large machine. So you may have a little labor savings there. They’re big machines out there. Yeah, there. There really are. Yes. So that’s that, but I don’t think okay, so you take away a headcount, okay. You add it you take like, Okay, take all the labor out, I don’t even care. It’s not even a blip on the map. Yeah, I mean, it’s hardly anything. Yeah. So, it the cost analysis, what my points the cost analysis is still Yeah, still very valid absolute. So there’s a couple things to think about. Now you have the cost comparison now for one ton per day. But then you add in all of that solvent loss costs, just looking at solvent loss alone, using those figures. I mean, if you add all that up over time, you’re really talking about a lot of money. That is, you know, the CO2 is really going to give you a lower cost per gram to produce. You know, a lot of people want to impress us on that, okay, what is the cost per gram to produce? There’s a whole bunch of assumptions that you can make, and we can get calculators for you. So you can make your own assumptions on those because it does vary. I mean, what do you know, what are you going to have For overhead manufacturing overhead, which I don’t know what you guys are gonna have for overhead, what are you going to have for your SGA? Which is your, your, your sales, marketing, you know, all that stuff is gonna, you know, add to the, to it. So, all right. So anyway, that’s the bottom line, and on terms of the cost, so when you look at how that method then will affect your enterprise value. Okay? Let’s think about this together. So I have two methods, method a and method B, and you have a huge operating cost that’s lowering my gross margin method a, and I have a low cost method that has that cost me more on the equipment side, but it’s going to be a radically lower in cost to produce a kilo worth of product. Which one do you go with? Well, that’s a business question, right? Yeah, absolutely. And my thought is that I don’t want to mortgage the future so that I can save a million dollars at the get go. I’m going to go with a lower cost process. Because the process in the investors and everything are going to be evaluating you on your ability to create and generate cash, correct. That’s it long term, long term and long term. And also, the cash that you generate in the short term is going to be basically probably reinvested into the business or the more cash you have in the short term, the more you’re going to be able to invest. The more salespeople you’re going to have, you know, the more product development you are marketing, you’ll be marketing you can do, the more margin you have. So and then when you think about your, your company, the net present value, which is basically a series if you add up all those cash flows over time, and then you discount them to do value like today. That’s really where if you have a larger cash generation out of method A versus method B or method B or method a, you’re really able to say, Okay, well, this is really, really going to value my business because I know what’s going to happen. That’s right. The accountants are going to come in and they’re looking at my business, they’re going to look at what I’m doing and that number is going to make a big impact. On, on my net present value,
Randall Thompson 43:02
and then exports to all of the investors are looking at Yeah, all net present values is critical. Yeah, absolutely,
Dr. Jon 43:08
yeah. And then when you talk about maybe the sale of your company, then you’re talking about a multiple of EBITDA or a multiple of EBIT or whatever metric they want to use, but the multiples are greater for higher, even values. That’s just the way it is. Also, the book value, which is basically your balance sheet value, you know, because it’s costing you more, you have greater PP, the book value is going to be better too. And your enterprise value is all gonna be much better. So there’s a great, great virtue in gross margin. And if you can take your operations and make them better to improve your gross margin, that is a key, a key thing. So a lot of the well run companies that they all talked about that had good operational excellence, like GE and whatnot. Yeah, they all had armies of people going after you. half a point of margin. Absolutely. Because that would improve their gross margin, which would improve their net margin, which would increase their multiple, which would increase their stock price it flow. That’s why, yeah, that’s why they did that. And just another
Randall Thompson 44:14
this is important. One of the things just so you know, EBIT stands for earnings before interest in taxes, depreciation, depreciation and amortization, that’s the DA EBIT, da. So, further down, when we’re talking about enterprise value, it’s just the EBIT, or, you know, earnings before interest in taxes. You take out the depreciation and amortization because those are not cash items, right? So you take those out plus cash minus debt, that gives you an enterprise value. So those are just things you want to make sure you understand as you’re talking to investors as well. So that and there’s primers all over online for that too. But net present value, get to know that Get, Get familiar and comfortable with that language. Because if you can talk about that and convince That to investors, they’re gonna love it. They’re gonna think you’re awesome. And, you know, talking about the EBITDA, multiples and book values and enterprise, they want to know that you understand the business side of it.
Dr. Jon 45:12
That’s right. So, you know, we could have gotten into all of the what I call them red herring. Oh, yeah. Kind of they are kind of red herring arguments like, oh, ethanol is a stronger solvent. So why I don’t care? Yeah. Well, Ivan has greater throughput. Well, I’m comparing apples to apples here. one ton for one ton. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, it’s got a shorter runtime again. Yeah. I don’t care. Yeah. Okay. Well, you use ethanol in your process. So why you CO2 anyway? Well, I kind of did explain that one. So that kind of is helpful for you guys. But again, all of those red herring arguments, they just kind of wither and die. Yeah. When you when you start to look at the absolute costs of really what you’re doing, saying, Okay, well, what am I really doing here? You got some other questions. Here on method see, like the next question, you know, what was the next thing? You know, we kind of are focusing on major, you know, like CO2 use industrial dust really all over the world for a lot of different things, including extractions and things like that. It is a beautiful method. There are things that are like the next day, they’re trying to do like microwaves and ultrasonic, all these are heat even, yeah, okay, all they are is trying to add energy to the liquid so that it will extract faster and all that is so there’s lots of different ways to do that. You can use yours lots of ways to get the heat into it. Okay. ultrasonic as is one way to do that you’re putting energy into the flowing stream. Okay. There are advantages and disadvantages of that, basically, because you got a lot of bubbles you’re making and, and you have to have it you have to tune it and actually the energy only goes a little ways away from the horn. It’s only like a millimeter, two millimeters away from the horn. There are other things you know, and I don’t Say that those are bad. It’s just they’re not normal techniques that people you know, people are trying to. My point is that if you have an hour long runtime, you can do 16 kilos an hour, you can make a lot of money, basically just doing ethanol, or CO2 or whatever. What’s the point? And you know, what’s the point in R&D? I’m an R&D guy. It’s just a really exciting time to do R&D. Yeah. And I think that when you think about the next it’s like, Okay, well, I would have to come up with a process that could compete with four cents a pound, how can I possibly do that?
Randall Thompson 47:32
And I think the one thing that I want to make sure that we’re talking about when you go with ultrasonic ultra sound, microwave, other elements, those are, you know, you’re putting energy into, you know, from electronic, electrical energy. But when we’re talking about CO2, what we’re talking about more is pressure. Yeah, right. So that’s the energy that we’re using more than anything, right. It’s the pressure right, as opposed to all ultrasonic waves or microwaves, or whatever, right? Yeah.
Dr. Jon 48:03
Is that a thing? Right? Are you thinking? Right? Yeah. So it’s, uh, is there a mass transfer problem with CO2? I don’t? I don’t think so. It’s not there’s no mass transfer problem with CO2.
Randall Thompson 48:15
Exactly. And I’m not saying there are, I’m just making sure. You know, from my mind that as we compare methods, see, the comparison is really about, right, the pressure as well as the electrical input that it takes to exert that pressure. Right. And not just the cost of
Dr. Jon 48:34
Yeah, and I would, I would say that any competing technique that you have, would need to compete with the four cents a pound. Yeah, exactly.
Randall Thompson 48:44
And, and that’s exactly and the power consumption, the power. Yeah, yep. Thank you, Brian, for that. I appreciate that. That was a very good, okay. Okay.
Dr. Jon 48:51
So anyway, that’s the main reason why I focused on costs. You know, there’s all kinds of other arguments that I mean, we can go through them Really quickly, but I don’t. I don’t see. Oh, one thing about scalability, that was one thing. Oh, it’s not scalable. See, that’s predicated on the fact that okay, the argument goes like this, you have a low, ethanol’s better on being solvent power has a high solvent power, and CO2 is less therefore it slow, therefore has a long cycle time, therefore has a low throughput, therefore, it’s not scalable. Okay, there’s just a ton of assumptions in there. It’s not true. It’s all bogus. busted. Okay, because you guys can go on to our YouTube channel here, and click on online video that shows a 510 a day facility running on CO2, and it’s an extremely small footprint. So it’s just not correct.
Randall Thompson 49:42
It’s a cool video. It’s about 55 minutes, and I would recommend that you go there on our YouTube channel, subscribe. We get a lot of these kind of videos and a lot of education there too, as well. Are we at a point where I can ask a few other just questions that aren’t related to just operational cost, or I don’t want to
Dr. Jon 50:00
truncate, this is it that’s all I have, oh, additional hidden costs. Oh, hidden costs hit it. There’s lots of hidden costs. There’s stuff that I told you we didn’t talk about. Sure. Okay. But one of those would be hazardous waste disposal happy admissions in case you are in an area where there’s, you know, concern over hap, and which is hazardous air pollutants, which would be ethanol, if you stuck it outside and let it dry. Let me see here increased insurance costs, you know, aren’t insurance company goes crazy. When we got a total of ethanol in our facility? They just go crazy. Oh, can’t have thought about. Okay. All right, fine. Well, we gave him our fire analysis that we do and he said, okay, it’s okay. I can’t imagine what a real ethanol processor does. When the insurance guy walks through. I mean, he wouldn’t allow us to keep it outside. I mean, that was one thing. Oh, we’ll just put it outside. So, you know, unless you have their permits for that, you know, also adjoining building issues that can really sink your whole entire operation. So something they About, and there’s also costs associated that with that, and then local permits, cost differences and so on and so forth. So, those are some of the Oh, I those are some of the things and then I got ethanol scorecard for that. Okay. Okay, so yep, infrastructure costs, oh, wait, ethanol wins and okay infrastructure costs, we went on the infrastructure because we can operate an F two, occupancy. And if you’re doing one ton a day, you’re going to have more ethanol that’s allowed in an F two occupancy, oh, and so you need to move to an h2 occupancy. And the deal, there’s square footage wise, if you’re going to build it up new is $232 per square foot for an h2 occupancy as opposed to some like 63 for an F to occupy. So if you know that’s something if you’re trying to take an existing building, and with an F occupancy and make it into an h2 occupancy, you’re going to learn about all those costs. Okay. So we went on that, okay. Ethanol wins on equipment costs, we just can’t compete with you know, low pressure, I mean, low pressures. Yeah, you know, expensive so, and then operating costs. We went on That for sure. And enterprise value we went on that. I think throughput is a draw in this case, basically, because I was comparing apples to apples one time day one. Yeah, there are there are massive ethanol extraction equipment out there that’ll do, you know, 10 tonnes a day, that type of thing. So I didn’t compare our one ton a day to their 10 tonnes a day and say there’s wins, just comparing apples to apples. In terms of scalability, we win because you can get there early is a nice way to scale it. That’s probably a good topic for us to do. And then our hidden costs, we went on those because they’re, they’re all less so in my view. Here’s our scorecard. I think we’ve won. Oh, well, there’s one other question, why does CO2 equipment cost more? A lot of people have questions about that. Why does it cost more for CO2 content? Well, a lot of the like, if you’re gonna do a weldment, which is basically ethanol equipment is a bunch of weldments. You know, a lot of those are pre fabbed up and you can get them in China. So we don’t have those low costs or weldments Okay, that our prefab weldments all of our vessels are prefab they’re all forged in the USA here we have a foundry, we get them we get a big billet of material, we do all of our own stuff, it’s all in the USA. So that’s part of the reason why the equipment costs a little bit more. Also, the pumps are more expensive because, you know, you’re pumping at 5000 psi. Yeah. So and then high inside pressure, by the way, high pressure is not unsafe, if just that let you guys know that everybody hears is a pressure washer. I mean, they got you know, I my pressure washer goes up to 4500 psi, and I can operate it and I have my 12 year old kid, right. So it’s not like you’re gonna die. But because the pressure, high pressure does not necessarily feel unsafe. And among all the CO2 manufacturers out there, I don’t know of a single catastrophic event. Yeah, but I do know with ethanol, there has been fires already, like big fires. Yeah. And I also know that there have been explosions with butane and propane. Oh, and those have been in the in the in the news in the
Randall Thompson 54:06
news. Okay. municipalities are cracking down on what they’re offering and allowing, as well because of that.
Dr. Jon 54:13
Yeah. Right. So anyway, so that’s why it’s more expensive. Basically, you have just the components that go into it. And of course, CO2 operations are of higher value. So why would we discount all of our equipment to ethanol when we’re offering such a huge value to our customers in low cost operation? I mean, it’s just, you know, it’s just higher value. So, anyway, yeah, so that’s, oh, checkmate. Look at that. I got the gnome there. He just we’ll see who actually did the checkmate there.
Randall Thompson 54:42
I love it. That’s funny. All right. A couple quick questions, and then we’ll bounce Kara had asked him questions about CO2. Yeah. And the safety of CO2. Yeah. Is CO2 exposure hazardous?
Dr. Jon 54:53
Yeah. So that you need to have a sensor on your system and we have sensors throughout out the entire basically we have them on our equipment, we have them in the facilities, your exposure is 5000 ppm maximum for an eight hour period. And typically we’re measuring, you know, maybe five, four or 500 600 ppm Max CO2 in in the facility. It’s an exposure that if that would happen if you had a leak, but you know, if you do have a leak, you get out, you know, a lot of like our CO2 systems, they’re all hooked up to like exhaust fans, so you can exhaust it out. But normally, I mean, you’re breathing, we’re breathing CO2 right now. So it’s not like ethanol, for example, raw in terms of even toxicity. Okay. So yeah, I would say that that would be, make sure you have lots of CO2 systems, and they make ones where you can put them right on the wall, and they’ll alarm and they’re really great. And we have them built into our equipment. So we have belt and suspenders in. So all right,
Randall Thompson 55:54
well, that’s excellent. And Kara, thank you for that question. And many of you have asked if we can get this out. The presentation and absolutely there will be a replay link available to you No problem. We’ve got lots and lots of questions they’ve been they keep coming in. We’ll have more of these as we go. And we want to be respectful of your time. We’ve covered a lot of material today. Good job, man. All right, well done. So join us next week. Next week we are going to be talking about an illegal primmer Whoa, does that mean how we’re going to teach them how to be illegal? Yeah, yes. So
Dr. Jon 56:28
how to make your facilities violate every possible
Randall Thompson 56:35
is this is gonna be conducted by the gnome. We should be kind of fun actually. Oh my gosh. Okay, too funny. All right. So next week, illegal primmer one on one next Thursday, noon Central. be here. Thank you for being here. We just so appreciate it. Dr. Jon, well done. Again, I just want to say our favorite part of being here is interacting with you. Getting your questions understanding where you are. We’re not we don’t have an axe to grind. That’s not our why we’re here. We’re here to help you make money for us to make money. We want to lock arms and run with you as we go forward. That’s really what we want to do. Subscribe to our YouTube, our calculator library is on its way, there were a couple of things that we needed to make adjustments, because Dr. Jon wanted a little more whiz bang in the calculators to just bring more value to you guys. So that’s just taking a little bit extra time. Sorry about that. Visit us on all our social channels, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. And we’ll look at our site as well. We’ve got a lot of resources, a lot of education, our blog. Oh my gosh, our blog is like a bunch of white papers. I mean,
Dr. Jon 57:46
how many blogs do we do a week? Or three, two or three? Yeah,
Randall Thompson 57:51
but and they’re like white papers. I mean, they’re not small. They’re not trivial. So go there. Thank you again and congratulations Julian Andrews, for Being the winner and sign up, make sure that we get the winning.
Dr. Jon 58:04
We’re good. I think so. Is there anything that they can do to give feedback direct to this presentation? If you guys have any questions or whatever, I’d be really awesome. It’d be really great to interact with you. You know, if you got to, hey, I don’t really like this or I don’t just give me Is there a way for them to get a hold of me? Okay, yeah, just reply to the registration email and with extra questions
Randall Thompson 58:24
with comments with, hey, you didn’t consider this. We’d love to hear that. What did we consider what didn’t we consider? What did you learn? Because we’re always learning. Yeah. Dr. Jon, one of the big things is, hey, we’re an R&D facility more than anything, and we’re always learning and you can leave feedback on social media, any of our social media channels. They’re monitored regularly. Yep. Jared is out there doing all the best.
Dr. Jon 58:48
We got a great team. Oh, man, we got a great team. And thanks, thanks to you guys, too. We got James and April in the background here. These guys are awesome. They make everything run smoothly.
Randall Thompson 58:58
So anyway, Well and they kind of keep us in line. They do well they try like they push them up.
Dr. Jon 59:08
All right, thank you. Thank you. Bye now.
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